[ENOG discuss] Anti-Shutdown-01

Dmitry Kohmanyuk dk at hostmaster.ua
Wed Apr 12 21:02:53 CEST 2017


Nice discussion folks. I would also like to recall RIPE position on allocating internet resources to "Donetsk republic" or to "Russian-Crimean ISPs" - also purely technical decision, not political.

It is true that RIRs are not tasked with human rights. It is also true that removing resources from allocation based on government actions would penalize ISPs in the country and not the government - and most likely smaller ISPs, as larger ones (multi-national) can just go ahead and reallocate to their branch in a "good" country. So result would be to make people in affected country to have less choice. 

Also, removing resources from RIR database does not make them unused. Any ISP can continue to announce prefixes affected and most likely its peers would continue to accept them. As we are now in last /8 phase worldwide (subject to local rules) it means that taking away large block from ISPs, even temporarily would mean cutting them off from future allocations of, say, /16 they need.

Compare with recent result of Venezuela educational institution unable to pay their RIR fees for addresses they used - they weren't reallocated, but rather "special case" was made and ultimately they paid back.

Giving RIRs effective power to penalize governments for humanitarian abuses would force them to become political actors. As typical RIR doesn't have an army or a navy it's hard to defend itself as political power ultimately rests on ability to kill at will and en masse, and take over land (I am stretching a bit? See: West Sahara. Also: Sinai peninsula.)

Government abuses should be treated same as hurricanes and earthquakes: force majeure. It's not fault of people who suffer.

And what would be the end result of forcefully de-allocating addresses?

In case of regular allocation policy, it would result in them lost to new applicants. In case of last-/8 policy, it would be useless (number of active LIRs in AfriNIC is small to give everybody their /22 and more.)

This being said, I would support taking back resources for non-use (reclaiming "dark internet".) It's very hard to quantify and measure (how do you know that IP space isn't used anyway?); and that's not done.

> On 12 квіт. 2017 р., at 14:28, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru> wrote:
> 
> Please , reread Article of Assotiation - we are not in operator's bussiness - no more comments.
> 
> Before write a word - please, think do not harm.
> 
> 
> Sincerely 
> Dima
> 
>> On 4/12/17 10:04 AM, Volodymyr Litovka wrote:
>> Dmitry,
>> 
>> your position on this topic is clear. Since government of Russia, actually, is closest to such "shutdown" scenario, you will not support sanctions for this.
>> 
>> But this proposal is about how to deal with attacks. There are, actually, three choices: ignore, be deeply concerned and penalize. Last years from real world's life shown what happen if 1st and 2nd options were chosen.
>> 
>> In the case we're discussing now, if RIRs think that somebody violates human rights (even if local government don't think so) or attacks Internet in any other way, RIRs need to actively react on this. Actually, we all need to defend this territory as much as we can and there is no place for inactivity and passive observation.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>>> On 4/12/17 1:31 AM, Dmitry Burkov wrote:
>>> We need to stay absolutely neutral and leave politics to others 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 4/11/17 10:47 PM, Sergey Myasoedov wrote: 
>>>> Один из авторов прокомментировал так: This proposal opens a very interesting debate about the neutrality stance in the face of what I consider human rights abuses. 
>>>> Should the RIR's stand neutral while it happens, or should they stand and fight for the rights of the users and the members. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 11 Apr 2017, at 21:30, Tigran Zakoyan <tigran at tigran.am> wrote: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Вообще-то, это не против стран и даже не против государств, это против конкретных правительств. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> вт, 11 Апр 2017 г., 22:20 Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru>: 
>>>>> Группа сумасшедших решила вводить санкции против стран - good luck - 
>>>>> очень плохая идея и то - что 
>>>>> 
>>>>> я не принимаю - провокация в стиле попа Гапона ( это не к Сереже) 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/11/17 10:00 PM, Sergey Myasoedov wrote: 
>>>>>> Всем привет! 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> В AfriNIC сегодня внесли предложение по изменению правил. Необычное. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.afrinic.net/en/community/policy-development/policy-proposals/2061-anti-shutdown-01 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 13.1 In the event of an internet shutdown performed at the order of a government that is either total or partial: 
>>>>>>    For a period of 12 months following the end of the shutdown – AFRINIC will allocate no resources to the government of the country 
>>>>>>    This also applies to all government owned entities and entities that have direct provable relationships with said government. 
>>>>>>    In the event of a transfer policy existing, AFRINIC shall not assist or participate in any transfers to any of the entities above. 
>>>>>>    All sub-allocations of space within said country involving the referred to entities shall equally cease for a period of 12 months. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 13.2 In the event of a government performing 3 or more such shutdowns in a period of 10 years – all resources to the aforementioned 
>>>>>> entities shall be revoked and no allocations to said entities shall occur for a period of 5 years. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ждем реакции сообщества. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Kind regards, 
>>>>>> Sergey Myasoedov 
>>>>>> 
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>> 
>> -- 
>> Volodymyr Litovka
>>   "Vision without Execution is Hallucination." -- Thomas Edison
> 
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